Talk:Spirit Binder

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[edit] Source?

Karlos, could you point me towards the line that leads you to believe that the term "spirit binder" refers to the device (the physical shell) that is used to bind the spirit? I've played through the Tahnakai Temple mission again yesterday, paying close attention especially to all dialogue. After that, it is my interpretation that the term "Spirit Binder" (always used in singular and capitalized in all Tahnakai Temple dialogues, like a title) simply refers to Shiro himself.

I have to play through Vizunah Square and Imperial Sanctum again in order to pick up the exact wording in these two missions, because as far as I remember, the term isn't used at all in these missions.

Another question: According to your understanding, how do the [[construct]]s tie in with what you call "spirit binder"? The constructs use a different type of brownish armor as the physical shell. Do you consider that type of shell a spirit binder too?? I want to play through Sunjiang District again in order to pick up exactly what is being said about the constructs. -- 02:27, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

P.S.: Please also comment on the dialogue of Brother Khai Jhong, especially the "when you destroy the construct, the spirit will be released" part. -- 03:31, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

I never got a chance to get back to you on this issue, and it's troubling to me that you just assumed there was no proof and that it was an issue to actually vote on. I do not think you paid close enough attention to the dialog as the references are actually quite clear, I chose one reference from Naku's dialog that clearly blows your theory out of the water if it does not prove my theory beyond doubt.

In any case, here are a few screen caps:

This shows that it's the "consturcts" that are attempting to bind Vizu and that Vizu is struggling against the "constructs" not Shiro.

This is the main objective of the mission, it's relevant in that they did not use the article "the." In English you could say "Time till Joe's soul is harvested by angel of death" (to abbreviate), but you can't say "Time till Joe's soul is harvested by Grm Reaper" because his name is The Grim Reaper. i.e. if The Spirit Binder was another name of Shiro (a unique entity), the article "the" would not have been dropped. But because the spirit binder is just one of many, the article "the" can be dropped. That said, this argument alone is weak as the game has some pretty bad typos and grammer issues.

This is of course the center-piece of my evidence package. Naku referring to "The Spirit Binder" and "Shiro." I don't think it leaves any doubt that the Spirit Binder is not Shiro.

The final proof is of course that NO ONE in the entire game refers to Shiro as "the spirit binder." --Karlos 14:47, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

Whoa.. Check this out. I think this statement was added later on (not when the game first came out). I just came accross it while capping the skills of the bound spirits in Imperial Sanctum:

--Karlos 01:07, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

The first three screenshots are not compelling. I could argue why, but it would be pointless, because the very last screenshot is very compelling. I stand corrected and withdraw my point. Thanks for the clarification.

Now I have only one thing left to clarify: What's the difference between a Construct and a Spirit Binder? -- 04:11, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

In my mind (and based on quotes like Togo's up there) I consider construct just another word for the spirit binder. i.e It's name is Spirit Binder and they call it construct or device too. However, the construct bosses (and they only exist as bosses, no non-boss creature is called construct) have a different skill set than the bound spirits/shiro'ken. They do drop Soul Stones though. --Karlos 04:37, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Vote on what people think Spirit Binder means

Who or what is the "spirit binder" referred to for example in the Tahnnakai Temple mission discription?

• It is the tool (the physical shell) used by Shiro to encage a bound soul.
  1. -Gares 12:11, 17 July 2006 (CDT)
  2. -- Gordon Ecker 04:08, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
  3. --Karlos 13:56, 23 July 2006 (CDT)
  4. --- (ha i have more dashes than you) --(talk) 14:51, 23 July 2006 (CDT) I think this is obvious from the last mission - you get bound and there are the binders - binders bind, shiro is different
  5. -- 04:14, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
  6. Your vote here.
• It is simply a different name for Shiro himself.
  1. -- 04:34, 17 July 2006 (CDT) (withdrawn)
  2. Your vote here.
• Other (specifiy)
  • Moot. Explain the various interpretations in the spirit binder article. There are enough ppl who care enough to ensure overall it will be NPOV after numerous edits. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:53, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
  • Abstain. Don't really care, tend to agree w/PanSola, but not even interested enough for that.  :P --Rainith 14:06, 23 July 2006 (CDT)
  1. Your vote here.

Just a comment on PanSola's vote. What "various interpretations"? Do you see the above evidence as leaving any room for the possiblity that the Spirit Binder is Shiro? I hope we will not "murkify" the article just because one (or more) users hold unsupported opinions about the possible meaning of a term or phrase. Like I did with your Warden arguments, and like I did with the Elona argument, I refuse to put in the article any interpretations that are not supported by in-game text (not allowed, supported, BIG difference). i.e. the argument that a theory is not absolutely 100% negated by game text does NOT hold, the theory has to have some in-game text that supports it, not simply "not negate it."

So, the same metric applies here as in other places. We will foster the idea that the Spirit Binder might be a name for Shiro when someone in game uses it to refer to Shiro. I believe the words of Naku above make it very clear that "The Spirit Binder" the heroes are talking about is not Shiro.

If the smallest shred of evidence is presented, I will be the first one to rewrite the article, as you saw in the case of Elona/Elonia. This is not about "defeating" the opposite opinion, this is about sticking with our policies. This is not a fan forum site where all possible interpretations and fan fiction are collected. We try to stick to the in-game facts as closely as we can. Opening articles to speculative subjective content is the last thing we want to do. --Karlos 15:32, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

My vote and comment predates the "above evidence" you presented, in case you didn't notice. My "moot" comment was mostly directed at how the definition of spirit binder affects the original discussion related to bound spirits. I still think the definition of Spirit binder is moot related to the definition of bound spirits. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 22:15, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

[edit] "ghosts of the underworld"

I'm more inclined to believe the spirits that get bound are those who did NOT make it to the Underworld, but were on their way to the Underworld. The job of envoys are to guide spirits of the departed on their way. If the spirits have already made it their way to the Underworld, it feels unlikely that Shiro could abuse his envoy power to do anything to those spirits. Thoughts? What are the direct in-game quotes relating to the spirits used by Shiro vs the Underworld? -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 22:22, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

I put that to say ghosts of dead people. It's not mentioned any where, fell free to reword it as you see fit. I agree that technically, they are the ghosts who have not found a final home in the UW yet. --Karlos 23:57, 23 July 2006 (CDT)