Talk:Effective warrior guide

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this has been needed for a while. --Honorable Sarah 15:03, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

You might notice how I (started) a complete rewrite of the Effective monk guide. That is because I feel the guide was written way to much in the stile of a build article as opposed to a guide. I wont do so here (because the monk guide is enough work for me & I know most about monks), but I feel the same critizism is valid here as well. --Xeeron 06:58, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

I think both articles have a patronizing tone and are more akin to "how I think warriors should be played" rather than "effective ways to use a warrior". Reads like propaganda. Seventy.twenty.x.x 14:35, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

Contents 1 todo 2 Incarnadine 3 anon edits of recent flavor 4 Split the guide(s) 5 Armor suggestions = meh. 6 yo i got a question 7 A Very Slight Improvement 8 review 9 Small change 10 Hogwash. 11 I guess not. 12 Adrenline gain 13 Redone and Revised 14 Page status 15 Slight Revision 16 Suggested Skills 17 Triple chop and vigorous spirit

[edit] todo

1. fix the tables
2. expand the advantages/disavantages bit
3. pictures
4. write the other 7 articles in this set....
5. Suggueted Strategies section:
   1. Add that dolyak signet+watch yourself are awesome =) Skuld 16:50, 3 May 2006 (CDT) done --Honorable Sarah 12:47, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
6. Talk about warrior weaknesses and how to mitigate them (e.g. condition removal - best with Plague Touch or a monk skill, but something like Signet of Malice or Antidote Signet will do in a pinch) — 130.58 (talk) (01:04, 14 May 2006 (CDT))
7. Throw in some notes (or at least a link) about successful pulling and managing aggro, since that's your job in PVE. — 130.58 (talk) (01:04, 14 May 2006 (CDT))
8. Add an actual strategy section. Include PvE (like mentioned above) and PvP combos, spiking, coordination, calling and all the others. --Nilles 05:06, 23 May 2006 (CDT)

In my experience you can't go wrong with Dolyak Signet, "Watch Yourself!", Flurry and Sprint being on your bar at all times Skuld 16:53, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

I've never found Flurry to be truly worthwhile. Something like "For Great Justice!" is a better adrenaline builder, in my opinion, and it lets you throw in other stances for extra offense, defense, or additional energy/adrenaline management. If you're going to pack Sprint in your skill bar, Frenzy is actually a much, much better choice than Flurry, anyway: you get significantly more net damage (since there's no damage penalty) and less energy loss (due to the longer duration), but you don't have to worry about the penalty very much because you can just activate Sprint whenever you are getting attacked. — 130.58 (talk) (05:02, 20 May 2006 (CDT))

Well, bring a protection monk with Protective Spirit and the damage issue is resolved. --Nilles 05:33, 23 May 2006 (CDT)

About Eviscerate damage. I've never seen a number over about 90 when using this skill, and that's with 16/13 Axe/Strength. If the 200+ damage number is including the deep wound, that should be mentioned. LordKestrel 09:26, 7 May 2006 (CDT)

Well, if your target is lower in level or has only little armor, those numbers do show up. --Nilles 05:33, 23 May 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Incarnadine

Made some needed capitalization and minor editing changed. I have some problems with the claims of 200+ damage with an axe and Eviscerate. I'm sure against lower AL targets, perhaps, but reasonably?

As well, some of the "advantages" seem kind of... lame, really. Sword skins are an advantage? The FDS and IDS aren't all that great - IDS moreso because of the 15^50 mod, but honestly, that's kind of a poor inclusion as an "advantage".

I'm not that comfortable completely rewriting this, but I've made changes that I think help out. Some of the factual claims need to be substantiated - for example, the claim that "At 11 Axe Mastery, an axe will deal more damage, due to critical hit rate, then an equivalent sword at 11 Swordsmanship". Why is this true, if it is? Incarnadine 8:10am, 13 May 2006 (EST)

I was just about to ask that myself. Has it been verified somehow? I can't exactly say I'll trust it if it hasn't, seeing as ANet values game balance. I believe both swords and axes have the same success of inflicting a critical hit with 11 points spent in their respective attributes. — Galil 15:34, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

Since the crit rates are the same for any weapon mastery, only the base damage should matter in determining the average damage output. I don't actually understand what the guide is trying to say there. Actually, assuming an equal distribution of base damage score (15-22 and 6-28), sword damage is higher (18.5) than axe (17). --Nilles 16:13, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

Keep in mind when a weapon critical hits, it uses the max damage (28 in the case of Axe versus 22 in the case of Sword). - Greven 16:36, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

my point was about average damage per second. an axe warrior does more average damage per second then a sword warrior of the same weapon mastery, because they are both getting the same percentage of criticals, but the axe criticals are heavier.

there are two factors at work when determining the base damage of any particular attack. one is the damage the other is the critical hit rate

if int(RND+(.01+(0.0144*Attributeweapon)+(.01*AttributeCritical Strikes)) then 
 Damagebase=Uboundweapon
else
 Damagebase=int(RND*(Uboundweapon-Lboundweapon))+Uboundweapon
fi

i'll mess around in calc and see if i can export a chart for you. --Honorable Sarah 17:14, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

I get your point, Sarah. Due to the critical hit calculation, the axe will eventually outdamage the sword, provided you just fight long enough to score enough crits. [edit] Average at 11 weapon mastery for 6 hits (5 norm +1 crit) are therefore 124,5 damage (axe) and 123,6 damage (sword), right? --Nilles 05:17, 21 June 2006 (CDT)

[edit] anon edits of recent flavor

User_talk:71.213.45.102 made some good changes and some bad changes. frenzy is NOT a good skill. double damage = twice the work for the monk. Cyclone axe is powerful, esp since they expanded the range. i'd hate to do this, esp since the recent problems with reverts, but unless he can come defend those edits, i'll move them back. --Honorable Sarah 23:40, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

Frenzy, is however, a relatively great skill in PvP. The note mentions that it is used greatly in PvP, and I do not disagree with this because it is entirely true. The vast majority of Warriors carry Frenzy in PvP (check out observer mode and you can easily see this). Further, the addition mentions carrying Sprint to cancel Frenzy if you begin to take damage. These are sound and good tips, so I must disagree with your assertion that Frenzy is not a good skill. It may not be a good PvE skill the vast majority of the time, but it is an excellent PvP skill specifically in Guild versus Guild battles. - Greven 23:58, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

i conceed your every point, but this is a PvE focused guild. --Honorable Sarah 00:03, 21 June 2006 (CDT)

Nowhere does the guide say that it is exclusive to PvE, or even focused on that. Cyclone Axe is not the most damaging AoE Warrior attack, as Crude Swing deals more damage. Granted it has its own drawbacks, but the claim about Cyclone Axe being the most powerful was inaccurate and so I removed it. --Empyrean 21:15, 21 June 2006 {MST}

let's compare:

Crude Swing Pro: high +damage, Con: easily interupted
Hundred Blades Pro: double attack, Con: elite, no +damage
Triple Chop Pro: very high +damage, Con: elite, long recycle
Cyclone Axe Pro: ok +damage, Con: ...taking sugguestions?

as for PvE/PvP: you are right, it doesn't. i should have mentioned that when i wrote it. i'll be correcting that tomarrow am. --Honorable Sarah 00:29, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

You've said "Guild" enough times that I'm wondering if you're actually not talking about a guide. Is this just a recurring typo, or are we not even on the same page here? If cyclone axe were just listed as being a reliable non-elite AoE attack, I wouldn't have changed anything. But it is not the most powerful, considering that the attack itself deals less additional damage than Crude Swing and the base damage for the associated weapon is lower. As for a PvE focus, if you'd like to make a PvE guide then we should either have a seperate article for effective PvE and PvP Warriors, or we should just make a mention of the differences between effective warrior use in PvE and PvP under the same article. Since the existing article is simply an "effective warrior guide" it doesn't make sense to me for it to be only a discussion of PvE. I think having a seperate article for PvE and PvP strategy would be quite redundant, so we should just make mention of the effective strategies for both PvE and PvP play within the same article.--Empyrean 01:51, 23 June 2006 (MST)

[edit] Split the guide(s)

Trying to make an article that deals with both PvE and PvP warrior playing styles is, in a single word, retarded. The original intent of the article was for PvE warriors, and just adding random PvP facts here and there does not solve anything. I recommend either having two parts to the article (PvE and PvP) or just creating two separate articles. (This also applies to the other articles; I'm just concerned with warriors atm.)
This article as is does not "provide guidance for experienced characters playing new warriors or experience (sic) warriors looking for additional options." It's a basic warrior guide, and an incomplete one at that. Things that should be changed at the bare minimum (along with splitting the guide):

• Attribute levels setup
• A full-fledged armor guide
• Typical equipment setup
• Weapon swapping
• Shields
• Stances
• Adrenaline skills (it warrants a section by itself)
• Remove the advantages/disadvantages tables and write paragraphs instead
• Different playstyles: soloing, defensive PvE warrior, offensive PvE warrior, Arenas warrior, HA warrior, GvG warrior
• Remove "Suggested skills" and add "Suggested builds"

The guide has the potential to actually become useful, but right now I can't see why I'd recommend anyone to read it. -Savio 17:09, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

Well, there could be 2 different parts in the article (heading PvE Warriors/PvP Warriors), like in the monk guide. This is also much less detailed than the monk guide. Go ahead and add stuff. --Xeeron 04:33, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Armor suggestions = meh.

• Warrior's Endurance has a cap on energy gain and gives back energy very quickly, so having extra +energy really isn't a big deal.
• Associating weapon-specific runes with gauntlets is a bad idea: Shock, Bull's Strike, Shield Bash, "Coward!, "None Shall Pass!" and similar skills give any warrior good KD potential, regardless of the weapon used. Better to associate the weapon-specific runes with another slot, perhaps?
• Superior Vigor costs a lot. You want it in a slot that never gets traded out, ideally.

I realize that this isn't a terrible setup, but if we're giving people a foolproof scheme to work with, we need it to be more, well, foolproof. This one requires too much tweaking for special cases. I'm not quite sure how to modify it to make it general with minimal investment, but this scheme isn't *quite* there yet. — 130.58 (talk) 22:08, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

[edit] yo i got a question

"Few energy-based axe attacks are available." why is this a downside for axes

also would any of you guys mind if i junked about 80% of that article (the pve shit) and actually wrote a good guide to using warriors 64.251.141.172 01:53, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

I was considering doing it, but something called real life got in my way. A lot of the upsides and downsides are pretty irrelevant. Also, capitalization and punctuation would help. - Savio 02:32, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

Wow, this is the worst guide ever...someone should probably put it out of its misery. I edited a couple things, just so they made more sense, I think. I hope nobody reverts it. Is the guide supposedly to be intentionally bad, for some sneaky reason or something? X) Anyway, hopefully someone will just delete all this and rewrite it. Also, should the guide always use skills from every campaign? Surely anyone who's following this won't actually have played factions. God, that's a scary thought.

I suck at this and I'm sorry, but I suspect that people actually read and follow this guide, and it scares the hell out of me.Martialis 12:48, 30 November 2006 (CST)

[edit] A Very Slight Improvement

It says in the rules that I'm supposed to write something here. (It also says you aren't supposed to revert more than once, so please don't.) The note in this guide says that it is a guide for warriors in pve (intended for the kind of people who would read and follow this guide). Please don't fuck it up again.

I did list frenzy, once, and I don't think it should be listed more than once. I deleted the previous note about frenzy, in a small attempt to reduce the number of frenzying warriors in pve. It makes sense to delete this one, too. I think what I wrote is correct, and that would be obvious from the skill descriptions, as well as using them, in pve... What else am I supposed to write here? I think that's it.

Individual people aren't supposed to revert more than once. Statements like "X is the best" and "never use Y" are not helpful. This is only compounded by the fact there wasn't even an attempt to back those statements up (monsters don't start beating on a warrior when he uses frenzy). --Fyren 03:32, 6 December 2006 (CST)

Therefore groups of people can revert as many times as they want.

Begging doesn't work, and I don't know what else to do. Telling people which skills are best is perfectly helpful, and monsters do start beating on a warrior, which I implied by the note and the previous comment. It's a guide to being effective, not retarded.

I hope I haven't wasted my time.

Martialis, I suggest if you want to rewrite the whole guide (or a large part of it) you produce a new article in your namespace, i.e. User:Martialis/Warrior guide suggestion or something, and write everything there, and allow other users to help improve it. Making incremental changes to this article will probably end up with a lot of reversions. If you produce a separate article it would be possible to either replace all or some of this article with your suggestions, depending on people's opinions.

Although please bear in mind that you this article will have to cater for both PvE and PvP players. <LordBiro>/<Talk> 15:42, 6 December 2006 (CST)

That isn't a good idea imo, the 2 roles are completely different — Skuld 15:51, 6 December 2006 (CST)

I wouldn't know where to start and I certainly can't write anything that would be useful to PvP players. I hope people agree that there should be a good guide for PvE warrior, something to list good defensive skills and tell people not to frenzy. The details aren't really important.

As for PvP, that should be on this page, too, maybe with a big line between them. I'm not qualified to write anything, but from my noob point of view, I'm not sure it's possible to write a PvP warrior guide. What would you say? Include builds like shock axe, crippling slash, YAA; write a paragraph on stance cancelling; a paragraph on pressure and adrenaline spike; a paragraph on calling - how do you write a paragraph on calling? Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a pvp warrior guide. Can someone link me to one?

[edit] review

a big part of this article is utterly crap from my point of view and whoever wrote it obviously has a verry narrow view of the warrior: -why should a warrior bring like 2-3 skills just to counter some hexes and conditions??....isnt that a monks job? -why does the writer think that a warrior needs to be the so called "tank" in the game??...its not like the warrior aggros all the enemies and takes all the damage....most of the times he doesnt even get hit because the enemies tend to attack the weaker party members -why does it say that Frenzy should never be used in pve??...Frenzy SHOULD be used however a person wants to use it...people shouldnt come and give advices on what skill to use/not use in a pvp/pve game

conclusion:the biggest part of this guide just confuses the new player. What ive said here comes from experience as i have 1.5k+ gw hours of both pvp and pve play only with the warrior ~ed

Write the PvP guide, please. Martialis 10:15, 13 December 2006 (CST) Heh, I thought you were the same person that edited the page.

- Generally, no. A monks job is to make red bars go up, and if you need to remove other effects, then that's why you take condition-removal. I suggested 0-1, not like 2-3 - Because warriors are the best at tanking, and playing without a tank is hard - Frenzy is a terrible skill. It will get you killed if you're getting hit, and if you're not getting hit, then you're doing a bad job. Also, even if you ignore the damage penalty, frenzy is a specialised skill. It's not comparable to flail.

Is this really the best place to argue about this? I'm sorry that it's confusing, but you can fix it...

I still want you to write the PvP guide. Martialis 16:29, 16 December 2006 (CST)

[edit] Small change

I made a small change to the article: changed the name of "Types of Warriors (which I just made up)" and the articles under it, because they didn't seem to fit in the article. If you don't agree, change it back. Bug 14:23, December 16 2006 (GMT)

[edit] Hogwash.

Self healing because your out of range of the monk?

I have an idea. How about we have an effective warrior wright the effective warrior guide?

What a concept.

This sounds like it was writting by a rambo wammo that's always running off and bringing everything back to kill me.

Honestly, I hope noone has read this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bale Thorn (talk • contribs) 16:44, January 16, 2007 (CST).

Im going to spend the next ten freaking hours or so trying to clean this up.

God help me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bale Thorn (talk • contribs) 19:11, January 16, 2007 (CST).

Not bringing healing signet sounds pretty stupid. You always bring self-heals, no matter what. Sounds like you're the one needed the guide. —Blastedt— 19:13, 16 January 2007 (CST)

This article is not about builds, or suggesting skills. Go die.

I love friendly new people, don't you? —Blastedt— 19:20, 16 January 2007 (CST)

Me i'm more inclined to love unfriendly old people. If you think the little pictures by your name give you the right to change a proffesion guide into a build suggestion I'd say your wrong. Also, bringing healing signet to a group when your tanking is actually pretty darn dumb. Go ahead into domain of aguish with your healing signet. And I need a guide? I think you need a reallity check. What I need is a prozak from dealing with people like you all day.

....what? It isn't a build suggestion. I don't have a warrior myself that far. Besides, Lion's Comfort. —Blastedt— 19:24, 16 January 2007 (CST)

If you dont have a warrior, then wtf are you doing editing ANYTHING on the effective warrior guide? And whats more, a warrior that's out of range of the healer.. he's just wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. He's wrong to the power of wrong. If you dont know that, please, go away.

And another thing. When tanking, ya, go ahead, run out of range of your healers like a fool with your -40 armor healing signet, or your long term healing enchantments without tanking skills. Me, as a monk, i'll watch you get raped by shatter enchantment, to far out of range for me to outheal it, and die. I'm certainly not going to chase you into a pile of monsters to keep you up. And I wouldnt expect any other monk to do so for me on my warrior if I did something that downwright stupid. So again I say, I need a guid? I NEED A GUIDE?

Go die.

Warning: Bale Thorn, see your talk page before making any further postings. Threats and personal attacks WILL NOT be tollerated. Discuss the article, do not insult others. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:33, 16 January 2007 (CST)

This guide is crap. Do you want it fixed or not?

This "Gentelmen" up here is going to run off out of healing range with his healing signet and die. And teach other warriors to do the same in an article. So do you want your crapy guide fixed or not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bale Thorn (talk • contribs) 19:40, January 16, 2007 (CST).

Oh, I do. You have no idea how much. He doesn't think you're fixing it, though. He thinks you're blanking stuff. Warriors have self-heals and there is a section about self-heals. Some people think self-heals are important. Why do warriors use self-heals? That's not a retard question, I don't know. I don't bring one, but some people do.

Should we get rid of the section? Warriors don't use their self-heal when they're out of range? When else would you use it?

I don't know what a "Block" is, but why don't you add that? It doesn't sound like a healing spell. Add something (intelligent) before you delete stuff. Martialis 19:54, 16 January 2007 (CST)

BTW....I DIDN'T WRITE THIS. —Blastedt— 19:56, 16 January 2007 (CST)

[edit] I guess not.

I guess we'll just have to write down the names of all the noobs running around out of healing range with no clue in all the world what a "Block" is because of this article.

Thanks guildwiki. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bale Thorn (talk • contribs) 19:43, January 16, 2007 (CST).

What's a "Block"? ^^ 132.203.83.38 19:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

[edit] Adrenline gain

May wish to add that you gain adrenline from taking damage as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ryudo (contribs) 02:15, 4 February 2007.

...veeery slowly :) Entropy 20:16, 3 February 2007 (CST)

[edit] Redone and Revised

Please see my attempt at cleaning up the Effective Warrior guide, and discuss on the talk page whether or not it should replace the current one. Entropy 20:30, 5 February 2007 (CST)

[edit] Page status

This is a horrible guide I think =/ I never noticed it untill now. The advantages/disadvantages of each weapon looks like it was made by someone who doesn't even know much about being a warrior. What does the game market and greens have to do with anything? And why does it say a pve warrior's job is to tank? Either this guide is really outdated or someone doesn't realize tanks can be absolutely useless if the enemy isn't focused on the warrior, and with the new AI that happens very often. P A R A S I T I C 18:41, 12 February 2007 (CST)

It's horribly outdated. Many attempts have been made to tweak it into better shape, but the page trully needs to be re-written from scratch. It looks like Entropy has proposed a revision (section above this one), but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:57, 12 February 2007 (CST)

[edit] Slight Revision

I changed the self heal section to bring it into line with the changes to Lion's Comfort feel since it no longer requires X amount in Tactics to maximise the healing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.29.94.90 (contribs) 10:16, 11 April 2008.

[edit] Suggested Skills

That section is out of date, and I'm not sure what replacements should be made (just removing stuff doesn't sit well with me, or many other people). I don't think it should recommend skills that would tie a player to a specific build though. Toraen (Talk/Contrib) 04:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, quite out of date. How about making it "notable skills" instead? Essentially, skills that many builds are built around? WE, Eviscerate, Elite KD's, DSlash, Primal Rage? --JonTheMon 04:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking that suggested skills should be for listing skills a warrior could bring with any build. Enraging Charge is popular in PvE, for example, and fits into almost any warrior build. Toraen (Talk/Contrib) 04:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Triple chop and vigorous spirit

Question: The guide says that Cyclone axe and Triple chop are especially useful when combined with Vigorous spirit. However, the wikipage on VS states explicitly that only CA will trigger VS multiple times. Can anyone check that? -Amon Lasul-

It does not explicitly state only Cyclone Axe will trigger it, it simply doesn't list every single skill that works with VS, as it would clutter the page too much. To answer your question, yes, Triple Chop triggers VS for every foe hit. --Macros 16:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)